Most of this is right, but I would say Neuroticism is a trait to try and match to your own level, like Extraversion and Openness to Experience, rather than a trait to minimize in a partner. Empathy with your life partner is very important and most people find it hard to feel empathy with those of a different Neuroticism level from them. I think Bryan's dismissal of high Neuroticism people as undesirable illustrates this.
I say all this, as you may guess, as a high Neuroticism man long and happily married to a similarly neurotic woman.
Speaking as somebody who is very low Neuroticism, I will admit I could be wrong about this, but my wife of many years is moderately higher Neuroticism than me and I don’t have any trouble sympathizing with her. Do I feel the way she feels, no, definitely not. I do understand it. She professes to be very happy to be married to someone who is lower Neuroticism because it’s grounding/calming, and while we’ve never tested it in any empirical sense I’m certain that she has gradually become much lower Neuroticism over time.
My observational experience is that most high-Neuroticism couples I’ve observed don’t last. There are exceptions. I think, in particular, couples who are high in anxiety but low on anger have a better chance of making it—they bond over worrying but don’t lash out.
Overall I would say it’s a safer bet, no matter who you are, to marry someone with low Neuroticism because high Neuroticism people tend to exhaust themselves and others with emotional crises and reactions, even those prone to the same crises and reactions.
I think John Gottman has more complete advice on compatible personalities, based on decades of observation. There's a too-brief overview here, and his books are better. Volatile couples who yell a lot can do just fine, as long as both of them are volatile: https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-5-couple-types/
The other great source of information on this is Deborah Tannen's book "You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation." Tannen is an anthropologist and suggests that it's productive to think of women and men as coming from two completely different cultures. Among my favourite of her observations: most men will only argue/fight with people they're intimate with; it's a sign of trust and respect -- "I can deal with you straight." But for most women, fighting threatens intimacy. That has to be reconciled in most marriages.
Overall this is a great post by Bryan and I'll be sharing it with my kids.
I certainly agree that anger is much worse than anxiety. Effective anger management is an underrated contributor to relationship longevity, especially for men. I might even add poor anger management among the "typical male faults" that Bryan lists as especially important to work on oneself to overcome.
My wife and I are polar opposites when it comes to neuroticism. She is anxious about everything. I shrug at everything. Somehow, it evens out and I am better off with someone who always sees problems even if I usually never see them.
Yes, I thought the personality traits discussion was the weakest part of the post, although it is a very important part of selecting a partner.
My wife and I have a number of differences on personality traits, but I like how her personality traits are different. If our kid has a mix of our personality traits, then that sounds like a person who I would enjoy spending time with.
And I wonder, Nicholas, whether a woman high in neuroticism would agree with you, not intellectually but pragmatically (?) The one other person I read here who seconded your thought is also a man. So, my guess is while it may be obviously beneficial for a neurotic man to match with an equally neurotic woman, I'm not sure a high neurotic woman would deliberately prefer (if she had a multiple of choices) a high neurotic mate nor that she derives the same amount of value from it. But generally, I agree that matched neuroticism is better than mismatched one.
I'm very glad to hear you found such a great match and have been able to empathize and presumably comfort each other.
I am not sure I buy that matching Neuroticism for higher-Neuroticism people is a good bet. I've seen this play out as a real mess before -- it has the danger of becoming a really unfortunate feedback loop when they key in wrong. As for emphathy, I've seen empathetic and non-empathetic low-Neuroticism folks.
This is brilliant and true. However my advice would of simply been to go live overseas.
I work in an industry with a lot of international travel. My friends who marry foreign women are 100% happier.
And quite frankly being American in a dating market where majority aren’t will help you stand out and attract higher quality prospects that meet all the criteria above.
Note: my wife who is awesome is American. I am giving advice based on observation (however I did live overseas for a while and dated well)
Also... as a short ugly man, being irrationally confident helps.
If you're a little off nominal (probably like most readers of this blog), a mate from a different culture will attribute (some of) it to cultural differences instead of you being weird.
You don't have to live in another country - just date foreigners. (Universities are good places to find them.)
It worked for me - I (American) married a postdoc from Europe; been happily together for 26 years now.
I understand the temptation for men, especially nerdy men, to try to become a big fish in a small pond. BMI difference alone is probably tempting.
Still, interracial and intercultural relationships are very difficult. My default when I see them is skepticism, especially if it seems driven by fetish or wanting to "get more than you deserve" via a kind of racial alchemy.
The only good example of this I've seen was a male filipino / white girl pairing in my Catholic young adult group, and that was because both were very well adjusted individuals with very strong deep Catholic values from good families. For every one of those there are a lot of fetishistic white male/filipino female pairings that didn't work out well (especially if one or both were from troubled homes).
Finally, this leads into a different point that is important. You aren't just marrying your spouse. You are marrying their family. Those cultural differences will go beyond just your relationship with each other, but carry over into the family relationships. This is why its really important in these cases to have very strong fundamentals so that your families can connect as well.
Well, " interracial and intercultural relationships are very difficult. My default when I see them is skepticism" - I'd say: marriage between a man and a woman is very, very difficult. My default is skepticism. + If from the same country, the families are closer: more trouble.
Seriously: In a bi-national relation, there is an graceful "excuse" when the partner does sth wrong: "He/She is from X/Z, it is not her/his mistake, just a cultural thing". Same country, same situation, the impression is: "He/She is WRONG, oh so wrong." - Seeing divorce rates for US-US-couples (or any other country - Russia-Russia is worse, Saudi-Saudi seems worst), I see binational marriages at an advantage. (Disclosure: German. Strictly bi-national.)
Completely agree here. You will likely find more women that fit the criteria above and will instantly be a point or two above your typical pecking order. All around win-win. You can likely have great personality and great looks, a free lunch if there ever was one.
All over. My current coworkers have mostly Latin American spouses because that’s where we work. My military friends had spouses from all over.. Asia and Europe.
Great piece. I think the only thing I’d add is a general caution not to enter a relationship/marriage with the hopes of changing the other person, especially where the success of the relationship will depend on that change actually happening.
Along these lines, I've long thought that a social scientist should write a very data-driven book called *How to Marry a Woman Who Won't Divorce You,* with rich statistical analysis of the traits of women that statistically predict that they'll initiate divorce. I'm very curious what those traits would be. And it would be a huge contribution to men's happiness if they could get some good advice on how to avoid marrying a woman who divorces them.
Great advice as usual. In my opinion, though, don't neglect attraction. I tried focusing 90% of my attention on the sort of other items you mention, particularly values, and found a great match, but ultimately lacked a certain je ne sais quoi and broke up with her.
The way I would modify your advice is to listen to the inner voice of "chemistry" and allow it to speak. A "there's something here" chemistry is good enough and you don't need "ZOMG" chemistry, but be careful of an "I'm not feeling much here" chemistry even if many other factors rationally match. Involuntary emotions (e.g. butterflies) are good evidence of this and watch for signs of her feeling the same.
I feel like the idea of a “soul mate” is still pervasive in our society, or at least a secular version of the idea that there is a perfect person out there for you, and you should never “settle” for anything less. To a large extent, getting into a serious long term relationship is a decision you have to make for yourself. I always had a tendency to get caught up on the idea of finding a hypothetical “dream girl,” who needed to have incredible taste in music, art, philosophy, religion, etc. I now realize that this is neither realistic or necessarily desirable.
Sharing interests with your girlfriend is mostly overrated, for the basic fact that men and women tend to be interested in very different things. Finding a woman who’s into the same esoteric styles of spiritual jazz, underground hip hop, or Norwegian black metal is damn near impossible, and the one woman at the underground hip hop show I can confidently say isnt usually the type you want to date. That’s what your friends are for.
My girlfriend now I’ve been with for 5 years and I’m likely going to marry her. We aren’t exactly alike in every way, but it’s always felt natural being together. She always supports me in all of my endeavors and I feel like I can always tell her how Im feeling. I know she’ll make a great mom. We have frequent great sex and are still always physically affectionate to this day. In the beginning I thought about leaving because I hated her music taste, but then I thought about what’s actually important. So I made the decision to build a relationship.
We’ve cultivated common interests in stand up comedy, the Grateful Dead (jam bands in general), and our dogs. She lets me explore my interests and share with her and I let her do the same. Moral of the story is don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good, especially when you have something good in front of you. There is no perfect woman or man.
A woman who's high on conscientiousness and low in neuroticism is very, very hard to come by. I would even say they most likely don't exist. The two traits usually go together, ESPECIALLY for women.
While I agree that looks can be overrated, an important thing to consider is “within reason, does she make an effort to look her best when the occasion calls for it?” Appearance is a lot about what God gives us. How we present ourselves is a signal.
If a woman show up on the first date wearing ripped jeans and piercings in odd places, don’t be surprised if later conflicts arise when you suggest she wear something appropriate to your mother’s funeral.
Also, people who don’t make any effort to look good (or intentionally try to look as hideous as possible) may have underlying self-confidence issues. That’s a big warning flag.
I’ve got a few female friends who carry a few extra pounds but still make reasonable efforts to look good. They all seem to be in good marriages and are definitely fun to hang out with.
Full disclosure: my wife is beautiful and likes to dress up and look nice.
I strongly recommend the book "how to know if someone is worth pursuing in two dates or less" by Neil Clark Warren. You might recognize him as the eHarmony guy. I read this shortly after my 40th birthday, which found me heartbroken and single - and it changed my life. Bryan makes some of the same points here: articulate your priorities for a mate to yourself - in writing. Then recognize you only get two or three priorities because the person you are dating has his/her own list. Every good sales person knows a quick no is much better than a drawn out maybe. Bryan is spot on with the need to figure out "Friend Zone" vs. possible partner early so you don't waste time on lost causes.
18b) Marry a woman who wants you to be the man YOU want to be. Then, in working for her, you'll also be working for yourself - and probably only partially succeed, but you'll be happy at whatever success you do get.
Regarding the last point, I would phrase it as: "Don't make changes to yourself for the marriage market unless you're willing to live with that change for the rest of your life." You're not trying to trick your potential partner into thinking that you're what they want, you are trying to grow into what they want.
Communication skills are critical. Maybe that goes under "personality," but I think it deserves its own bullet point. Don't confuse quantity for quality. If your partner can't communicate why they get angry or hurt, a long-term healthy relationship is extremely difficult.
Also, for something as important as identifying a marriage partner, don't take advice from random strangers on the Internet.
Omitted from this article: your first order of business is to get your own self in order. You don't have to have it *all* figured out, but you should have a firm grasp on who you are and what you're about, well on your way to being the awesome self you aspire to be, complete unto yourself without reference to your Other. Once that's solid, meaning you understand what you value and in what priority, you'll know what is and isn't negotiable in a relationship.
Every pot needs a cover. While the advice is perfect, it is perfect for very nice people. I guess I am not. At least, my wife has a wonderful personality - this time around. ;) And as some pointed out already: If you are from the 'first world' - all the world should be your market. If you are not: even more so! One plus: If there are 'disagreements' - oh, and there will be - both of you can think "well, in his/her culture, things are viewed differently" instead of straight-out blaming the other for being sooo wrong. (My three cent: Russian women are said to be "high-maintenance". Philippines: North of Manila might work out better than Cebu. Imelda Marcos is Cebuano. - Math-teachers are said to be the loneliest.)
Most of this is right, but I would say Neuroticism is a trait to try and match to your own level, like Extraversion and Openness to Experience, rather than a trait to minimize in a partner. Empathy with your life partner is very important and most people find it hard to feel empathy with those of a different Neuroticism level from them. I think Bryan's dismissal of high Neuroticism people as undesirable illustrates this.
I say all this, as you may guess, as a high Neuroticism man long and happily married to a similarly neurotic woman.
Speaking as somebody who is very low Neuroticism, I will admit I could be wrong about this, but my wife of many years is moderately higher Neuroticism than me and I don’t have any trouble sympathizing with her. Do I feel the way she feels, no, definitely not. I do understand it. She professes to be very happy to be married to someone who is lower Neuroticism because it’s grounding/calming, and while we’ve never tested it in any empirical sense I’m certain that she has gradually become much lower Neuroticism over time.
My observational experience is that most high-Neuroticism couples I’ve observed don’t last. There are exceptions. I think, in particular, couples who are high in anxiety but low on anger have a better chance of making it—they bond over worrying but don’t lash out.
Overall I would say it’s a safer bet, no matter who you are, to marry someone with low Neuroticism because high Neuroticism people tend to exhaust themselves and others with emotional crises and reactions, even those prone to the same crises and reactions.
I think John Gottman has more complete advice on compatible personalities, based on decades of observation. There's a too-brief overview here, and his books are better. Volatile couples who yell a lot can do just fine, as long as both of them are volatile: https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-5-couple-types/
The other great source of information on this is Deborah Tannen's book "You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation." Tannen is an anthropologist and suggests that it's productive to think of women and men as coming from two completely different cultures. Among my favourite of her observations: most men will only argue/fight with people they're intimate with; it's a sign of trust and respect -- "I can deal with you straight." But for most women, fighting threatens intimacy. That has to be reconciled in most marriages.
Overall this is a great post by Bryan and I'll be sharing it with my kids.
I certainly agree that anger is much worse than anxiety. Effective anger management is an underrated contributor to relationship longevity, especially for men. I might even add poor anger management among the "typical male faults" that Bryan lists as especially important to work on oneself to overcome.
My wife and I are polar opposites when it comes to neuroticism. She is anxious about everything. I shrug at everything. Somehow, it evens out and I am better off with someone who always sees problems even if I usually never see them.
Yes, I thought the personality traits discussion was the weakest part of the post, although it is a very important part of selecting a partner.
My wife and I have a number of differences on personality traits, but I like how her personality traits are different. If our kid has a mix of our personality traits, then that sounds like a person who I would enjoy spending time with.
And I wonder, Nicholas, whether a woman high in neuroticism would agree with you, not intellectually but pragmatically (?) The one other person I read here who seconded your thought is also a man. So, my guess is while it may be obviously beneficial for a neurotic man to match with an equally neurotic woman, I'm not sure a high neurotic woman would deliberately prefer (if she had a multiple of choices) a high neurotic mate nor that she derives the same amount of value from it. But generally, I agree that matched neuroticism is better than mismatched one.
I'm very glad to hear you found such a great match and have been able to empathize and presumably comfort each other.
I am not sure I buy that matching Neuroticism for higher-Neuroticism people is a good bet. I've seen this play out as a real mess before -- it has the danger of becoming a really unfortunate feedback loop when they key in wrong. As for emphathy, I've seen empathetic and non-empathetic low-Neuroticism folks.
This is brilliant and true. However my advice would of simply been to go live overseas.
I work in an industry with a lot of international travel. My friends who marry foreign women are 100% happier.
And quite frankly being American in a dating market where majority aren’t will help you stand out and attract higher quality prospects that meet all the criteria above.
Note: my wife who is awesome is American. I am giving advice based on observation (however I did live overseas for a while and dated well)
Also... as a short ugly man, being irrationally confident helps.
I agree but for a different reason.
If you're a little off nominal (probably like most readers of this blog), a mate from a different culture will attribute (some of) it to cultural differences instead of you being weird.
You don't have to live in another country - just date foreigners. (Universities are good places to find them.)
It worked for me - I (American) married a postdoc from Europe; been happily together for 26 years now.
Plus, a bonus - with any luck your in-laws won't share a language with you. This avoids an amazing number of problems. Just smile and wave.
Great alternative.
I understand the temptation for men, especially nerdy men, to try to become a big fish in a small pond. BMI difference alone is probably tempting.
Still, interracial and intercultural relationships are very difficult. My default when I see them is skepticism, especially if it seems driven by fetish or wanting to "get more than you deserve" via a kind of racial alchemy.
The only good example of this I've seen was a male filipino / white girl pairing in my Catholic young adult group, and that was because both were very well adjusted individuals with very strong deep Catholic values from good families. For every one of those there are a lot of fetishistic white male/filipino female pairings that didn't work out well (especially if one or both were from troubled homes).
Finally, this leads into a different point that is important. You aren't just marrying your spouse. You are marrying their family. Those cultural differences will go beyond just your relationship with each other, but carry over into the family relationships. This is why its really important in these cases to have very strong fundamentals so that your families can connect as well.
I’m just observing what I seen.
Well, " interracial and intercultural relationships are very difficult. My default when I see them is skepticism" - I'd say: marriage between a man and a woman is very, very difficult. My default is skepticism. + If from the same country, the families are closer: more trouble.
Seriously: In a bi-national relation, there is an graceful "excuse" when the partner does sth wrong: "He/She is from X/Z, it is not her/his mistake, just a cultural thing". Same country, same situation, the impression is: "He/She is WRONG, oh so wrong." - Seeing divorce rates for US-US-couples (or any other country - Russia-Russia is worse, Saudi-Saudi seems worst), I see binational marriages at an advantage. (Disclosure: German. Strictly bi-national.)
Completely agree here. You will likely find more women that fit the criteria above and will instantly be a point or two above your typical pecking order. All around win-win. You can likely have great personality and great looks, a free lunch if there ever was one.
Good points. My siblings and I coincidentally all married non-Americans (Australian, Chinese, Italian) and are better for it, I think.
Where are your friends' foreign spouses from?
All over. My current coworkers have mostly Latin American spouses because that’s where we work. My military friends had spouses from all over.. Asia and Europe.
The best way to find a wife is to join a social circle full of the kind of people you would want to marry.
1) this group is likely to be pre-selected with traits you want
2) the social dynamics of the group are likely to reinforce them
3) it should be a group of people that want to get married as being one of the traits. Desire for children is important too.
Rather then asking how to find “the one” ask “where would *the one* likely be”.
Great piece. I think the only thing I’d add is a general caution not to enter a relationship/marriage with the hopes of changing the other person, especially where the success of the relationship will depend on that change actually happening.
Along these lines, I've long thought that a social scientist should write a very data-driven book called *How to Marry a Woman Who Won't Divorce You,* with rich statistical analysis of the traits of women that statistically predict that they'll initiate divorce. I'm very curious what those traits would be. And it would be a huge contribution to men's happiness if they could get some good advice on how to avoid marrying a woman who divorces them.
Great advice as usual. In my opinion, though, don't neglect attraction. I tried focusing 90% of my attention on the sort of other items you mention, particularly values, and found a great match, but ultimately lacked a certain je ne sais quoi and broke up with her.
The way I would modify your advice is to listen to the inner voice of "chemistry" and allow it to speak. A "there's something here" chemistry is good enough and you don't need "ZOMG" chemistry, but be careful of an "I'm not feeling much here" chemistry even if many other factors rationally match. Involuntary emotions (e.g. butterflies) are good evidence of this and watch for signs of her feeling the same.
I feel like the idea of a “soul mate” is still pervasive in our society, or at least a secular version of the idea that there is a perfect person out there for you, and you should never “settle” for anything less. To a large extent, getting into a serious long term relationship is a decision you have to make for yourself. I always had a tendency to get caught up on the idea of finding a hypothetical “dream girl,” who needed to have incredible taste in music, art, philosophy, religion, etc. I now realize that this is neither realistic or necessarily desirable.
Sharing interests with your girlfriend is mostly overrated, for the basic fact that men and women tend to be interested in very different things. Finding a woman who’s into the same esoteric styles of spiritual jazz, underground hip hop, or Norwegian black metal is damn near impossible, and the one woman at the underground hip hop show I can confidently say isnt usually the type you want to date. That’s what your friends are for.
My girlfriend now I’ve been with for 5 years and I’m likely going to marry her. We aren’t exactly alike in every way, but it’s always felt natural being together. She always supports me in all of my endeavors and I feel like I can always tell her how Im feeling. I know she’ll make a great mom. We have frequent great sex and are still always physically affectionate to this day. In the beginning I thought about leaving because I hated her music taste, but then I thought about what’s actually important. So I made the decision to build a relationship.
We’ve cultivated common interests in stand up comedy, the Grateful Dead (jam bands in general), and our dogs. She lets me explore my interests and share with her and I let her do the same. Moral of the story is don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good, especially when you have something good in front of you. There is no perfect woman or man.
This is transparently well meant, sincere, and interesting. I do get the feeling that Bryan's wife might find it extremely funny.
A woman who's high on conscientiousness and low in neuroticism is very, very hard to come by. I would even say they most likely don't exist. The two traits usually go together, ESPECIALLY for women.
Such women do exist, but they tend to get married young to men smart enough to recognize them for the jewels that they are. My two daughters did.
While I agree that looks can be overrated, an important thing to consider is “within reason, does she make an effort to look her best when the occasion calls for it?” Appearance is a lot about what God gives us. How we present ourselves is a signal.
If a woman show up on the first date wearing ripped jeans and piercings in odd places, don’t be surprised if later conflicts arise when you suggest she wear something appropriate to your mother’s funeral.
Also, people who don’t make any effort to look good (or intentionally try to look as hideous as possible) may have underlying self-confidence issues. That’s a big warning flag.
I’ve got a few female friends who carry a few extra pounds but still make reasonable efforts to look good. They all seem to be in good marriages and are definitely fun to hang out with.
Full disclosure: my wife is beautiful and likes to dress up and look nice.
I strongly recommend the book "how to know if someone is worth pursuing in two dates or less" by Neil Clark Warren. You might recognize him as the eHarmony guy. I read this shortly after my 40th birthday, which found me heartbroken and single - and it changed my life. Bryan makes some of the same points here: articulate your priorities for a mate to yourself - in writing. Then recognize you only get two or three priorities because the person you are dating has his/her own list. Every good sales person knows a quick no is much better than a drawn out maybe. Bryan is spot on with the need to figure out "Friend Zone" vs. possible partner early so you don't waste time on lost causes.
18b) Marry a woman who wants you to be the man YOU want to be. Then, in working for her, you'll also be working for yourself - and probably only partially succeed, but you'll be happy at whatever success you do get.
Regarding the last point, I would phrase it as: "Don't make changes to yourself for the marriage market unless you're willing to live with that change for the rest of your life." You're not trying to trick your potential partner into thinking that you're what they want, you are trying to grow into what they want.
Communication skills are critical. Maybe that goes under "personality," but I think it deserves its own bullet point. Don't confuse quantity for quality. If your partner can't communicate why they get angry or hurt, a long-term healthy relationship is extremely difficult.
Also, for something as important as identifying a marriage partner, don't take advice from random strangers on the Internet.
Omitted from this article: your first order of business is to get your own self in order. You don't have to have it *all* figured out, but you should have a firm grasp on who you are and what you're about, well on your way to being the awesome self you aspire to be, complete unto yourself without reference to your Other. Once that's solid, meaning you understand what you value and in what priority, you'll know what is and isn't negotiable in a relationship.
Every pot needs a cover. While the advice is perfect, it is perfect for very nice people. I guess I am not. At least, my wife has a wonderful personality - this time around. ;) And as some pointed out already: If you are from the 'first world' - all the world should be your market. If you are not: even more so! One plus: If there are 'disagreements' - oh, and there will be - both of you can think "well, in his/her culture, things are viewed differently" instead of straight-out blaming the other for being sooo wrong. (My three cent: Russian women are said to be "high-maintenance". Philippines: North of Manila might work out better than Cebu. Imelda Marcos is Cebuano. - Math-teachers are said to be the loneliest.)