> am highly skeptical of the ability of social pressure to make people actually gay or trans, but Shrier shows evidence that it can make people say and even believe that they are trans.
What does it mean to "actually be trans" as opposed to "believing that you're trans?" Does Huemer think that there are male souls and female souls, and "a…
> am highly skeptical of the ability of social pressure to make people actually gay or trans, but Shrier shows evidence that it can make people say and even believe that they are trans.
What does it mean to "actually be trans" as opposed to "believing that you're trans?" Does Huemer think that there are male souls and female souls, and "actually trans" people have the wrong soul, while "believe that you're trans" have the correct soul, but think they have the wrong soul, or something?
Sometimes, young people are confused about their gender. This can happen partly due to social contagion and partly due to misleading content on the internet (e.g., content that lists very broad, normal psychological phenomena as symptoms of "gender dysphoria"). There are many cases of "desistance", in which people who previously identified as trans later come to accept their natal sex. However, trans activists go insane whenever someone mentions this.
Thanks for this response in particular, and your engagement here more broadly. You seem to be describing what it would mean for someone to mistakenly believe they are trans. The question was about how it differs from "actually trans." What is the coherent definition of the latter? Are you just using the latter to just refer to people whose dysphoria is more severe? If so, why would it be "fine to be (genuinely) trans" any more than it would be fine to be genuinely schizophrenic or delusional?
A belief more common among liberals is that "trans women are women." That is, that "trans women" share so many characteristics with biological women, as to be meaningfully members of the category 'women.'
Conservatives, on the other hand, largely view "trans women" as mentally ill men, just as they wouldn't consider a man who identifies as a dog, a dog. (You wrote that the Conservative view is "Transgenderism is bad." I think that that's more accurate in the sense that they view cancer as bad, than that they view crime as bad.)
The liberal view could accommodate the possibility that some biological males who lack these characteristics that would render them meaningfully female nevertheless mistakenly believe to have these characteristics, due to social contagion or otherwise, but would still accept the basic notion of a category of "trans women" who are "meaningfully women."
Is that similarly your perspective, and if so, what are these characteristics conceptually? I'm guessing you're a materialist and wouldn't accept the notion of a person being born in the wrong body, 'female souls,' etc. What then is the coherent conceptual category of "actually trans?"
There are systematic differences between males and females in the brain, just as there are differences in other systems in the body. Some of these differences affect psychology and behavior. A gender is a set of biologically-based psychological traits that are adaptations designed by evolution for a particular biological sex. A genuine transgender person is a person who has the gender designed by evolution for the sex opposite to the actual sex of their body.
However, some people believe themselves to be transgender while not actually having the gender of the opposite sex; they are mistaken about their own psychology and/or the psychological traits of the opposite sex.
Thanks again for the replies. Is there evidence that people, particularly trans identifying ones, exist with the psychological traits adapted for the opposite sex?
In this thread: https://twitter.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1748811302007366061, Cremieux Recueil finds that some of the supposed similarities between the brains of biological females and of trans MtFs disappear after controlling for sexuality. Instead, heterosexual MtFs' brains do not differ significantly from those of biological males.
I suppose that could be consistent with your model, though, if a sufficiently large percentage of self-identifying trans people are not "actually trans," then the average brains of MtFs wouldn't differ to a statistically significant degree from the brains of biological males.
In explaining the need to control for sexuality, Cremieux links to this study: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0801566105 which finds that in a number of respects (hemispheric volume asymmetry, functional connectivity), the brains of homosexual males are more similar to those of heterosexual females and the brains of homosexual females are more similar to those of heterosexual males.
If in this model it's possible for trans identifying people to be mistaken about truly being trans, is it similarly possible for people not suffering gender dysphoria, like typical homosexuals, to genuinely be trans? Would this model, then, interpret the aforementioned results as indicating that non-dysphoric homosexuals are "actually trans," while trans identifying people who are heterosexual (that is, attracted to members of the opposite biological sex) aren't actually trans?
Mallard, this will be discussed more in my next book, _Progressive Myths_. The last edition of the DSM in ~2013 gives the prevalence of gender dysphoria around 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100,000. Since then, the prevalence has exploded by perhaps 2 orders of magnitude. This makes it plausible that a large portion of recent cases are a different phenomenon from the original phenomenon.
The DSM discusses early-onset cases, in which children show the first symptoms starting around the age of 3, the first time that children show gender-differentiated behavior at all. These children are also likely to develop into "homosexual trans people" (but that's a confusing term. What they mean is sexually attracted to men if they're transwomen, and sexually attracted to women if they are transmen), i.e., they have the sexual attraction typical of the gender that they identify with, not their natal sex.
However, there are also late-onset cases, occurring at or after puberty. These are more likely to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex from their natal sex, and they are more likely to be auto-gynephiles if they are transwomen. It is likely that these individuals are of masculine gender, even though they wish to identify as women.
Lastly, in recent years, there has been an explosion of trans identificaion among adolescent females. These are a different phenomenon, likely due largely to social contagion.
Whether any of this counts as a "mental illness" or not I don't know. Pace forumposter123, however, I don't call any of these people "perverts", because I think that is a term of abuse. People who suffer gender dysphoria or gender confusion for whatever reason deserve our compassion.
Thanks again for all your responses. I certainly agree with your final paragraph. I've also checked out some very intellectually stimulating material on your Substack, and I look forward to the publication of your book.
Regarding sexuality: Sexual attraction to males is, in my view, *part* of what constitutes feminine gender, while sexual attraction to females is part of what constitutes masculine gender. Thus, some gay men may in fact be more feminine than masculine overall. This is also why I view gynephilia (attraction to women) as evidence against someone's being genuinely of feminine gender.
Trans: People whose long run life fulfillment would be improved by gender re-assingment surgery.
I would posit that the # of such people is very very very very very low. That it is far lower than the number of people who describe themselves as "trans" and probably only a small fraction of those that actually get surgeries (i.e. the surgeries often make things worse, not better).
A lot of MtF transfers aren't "women stuck in mens bodies" but mentally ill perverts that are physically attracted to the idea of themselves as a woman (a mixture of narcissism and lust).
People who don't have a sufficient amount of symptoms but still believe that they are trans. It could be due to social pressure. Much like people can claim to be gay but aren't actually attracted to the same sex.
> am highly skeptical of the ability of social pressure to make people actually gay or trans, but Shrier shows evidence that it can make people say and even believe that they are trans.
What does it mean to "actually be trans" as opposed to "believing that you're trans?" Does Huemer think that there are male souls and female souls, and "actually trans" people have the wrong soul, while "believe that you're trans" have the correct soul, but think they have the wrong soul, or something?
Sometimes, young people are confused about their gender. This can happen partly due to social contagion and partly due to misleading content on the internet (e.g., content that lists very broad, normal psychological phenomena as symptoms of "gender dysphoria"). There are many cases of "desistance", in which people who previously identified as trans later come to accept their natal sex. However, trans activists go insane whenever someone mentions this.
Thanks for this response in particular, and your engagement here more broadly. You seem to be describing what it would mean for someone to mistakenly believe they are trans. The question was about how it differs from "actually trans." What is the coherent definition of the latter? Are you just using the latter to just refer to people whose dysphoria is more severe? If so, why would it be "fine to be (genuinely) trans" any more than it would be fine to be genuinely schizophrenic or delusional?
A belief more common among liberals is that "trans women are women." That is, that "trans women" share so many characteristics with biological women, as to be meaningfully members of the category 'women.'
Conservatives, on the other hand, largely view "trans women" as mentally ill men, just as they wouldn't consider a man who identifies as a dog, a dog. (You wrote that the Conservative view is "Transgenderism is bad." I think that that's more accurate in the sense that they view cancer as bad, than that they view crime as bad.)
The liberal view could accommodate the possibility that some biological males who lack these characteristics that would render them meaningfully female nevertheless mistakenly believe to have these characteristics, due to social contagion or otherwise, but would still accept the basic notion of a category of "trans women" who are "meaningfully women."
Is that similarly your perspective, and if so, what are these characteristics conceptually? I'm guessing you're a materialist and wouldn't accept the notion of a person being born in the wrong body, 'female souls,' etc. What then is the coherent conceptual category of "actually trans?"
Thanks.
There are systematic differences between males and females in the brain, just as there are differences in other systems in the body. Some of these differences affect psychology and behavior. A gender is a set of biologically-based psychological traits that are adaptations designed by evolution for a particular biological sex. A genuine transgender person is a person who has the gender designed by evolution for the sex opposite to the actual sex of their body.
However, some people believe themselves to be transgender while not actually having the gender of the opposite sex; they are mistaken about their own psychology and/or the psychological traits of the opposite sex.
Thanks again for the replies. Is there evidence that people, particularly trans identifying ones, exist with the psychological traits adapted for the opposite sex?
In this thread: https://twitter.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1748811302007366061, Cremieux Recueil finds that some of the supposed similarities between the brains of biological females and of trans MtFs disappear after controlling for sexuality. Instead, heterosexual MtFs' brains do not differ significantly from those of biological males.
I suppose that could be consistent with your model, though, if a sufficiently large percentage of self-identifying trans people are not "actually trans," then the average brains of MtFs wouldn't differ to a statistically significant degree from the brains of biological males.
In explaining the need to control for sexuality, Cremieux links to this study: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0801566105 which finds that in a number of respects (hemispheric volume asymmetry, functional connectivity), the brains of homosexual males are more similar to those of heterosexual females and the brains of homosexual females are more similar to those of heterosexual males.
If in this model it's possible for trans identifying people to be mistaken about truly being trans, is it similarly possible for people not suffering gender dysphoria, like typical homosexuals, to genuinely be trans? Would this model, then, interpret the aforementioned results as indicating that non-dysphoric homosexuals are "actually trans," while trans identifying people who are heterosexual (that is, attracted to members of the opposite biological sex) aren't actually trans?
Mallard, this will be discussed more in my next book, _Progressive Myths_. The last edition of the DSM in ~2013 gives the prevalence of gender dysphoria around 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100,000. Since then, the prevalence has exploded by perhaps 2 orders of magnitude. This makes it plausible that a large portion of recent cases are a different phenomenon from the original phenomenon.
The DSM discusses early-onset cases, in which children show the first symptoms starting around the age of 3, the first time that children show gender-differentiated behavior at all. These children are also likely to develop into "homosexual trans people" (but that's a confusing term. What they mean is sexually attracted to men if they're transwomen, and sexually attracted to women if they are transmen), i.e., they have the sexual attraction typical of the gender that they identify with, not their natal sex.
However, there are also late-onset cases, occurring at or after puberty. These are more likely to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex from their natal sex, and they are more likely to be auto-gynephiles if they are transwomen. It is likely that these individuals are of masculine gender, even though they wish to identify as women.
Lastly, in recent years, there has been an explosion of trans identificaion among adolescent females. These are a different phenomenon, likely due largely to social contagion.
Whether any of this counts as a "mental illness" or not I don't know. Pace forumposter123, however, I don't call any of these people "perverts", because I think that is a term of abuse. People who suffer gender dysphoria or gender confusion for whatever reason deserve our compassion.
Thanks again for all your responses. I certainly agree with your final paragraph. I've also checked out some very intellectually stimulating material on your Substack, and I look forward to the publication of your book.
Regarding sexuality: Sexual attraction to males is, in my view, *part* of what constitutes feminine gender, while sexual attraction to females is part of what constitutes masculine gender. Thus, some gay men may in fact be more feminine than masculine overall. This is also why I view gynephilia (attraction to women) as evidence against someone's being genuinely of feminine gender.
Trans: People whose long run life fulfillment would be improved by gender re-assingment surgery.
I would posit that the # of such people is very very very very very low. That it is far lower than the number of people who describe themselves as "trans" and probably only a small fraction of those that actually get surgeries (i.e. the surgeries often make things worse, not better).
A lot of MtF transfers aren't "women stuck in mens bodies" but mentally ill perverts that are physically attracted to the idea of themselves as a woman (a mixture of narcissism and lust).
People who don't have a sufficient amount of symptoms but still believe that they are trans. It could be due to social pressure. Much like people can claim to be gay but aren't actually attracted to the same sex.