Incredibly adorable. It’s funny that all your big picture ideas to make the world better probably won’t get implemented soon, but might eventually because your readers have more kids
The year is 2300, American society is divided 50/50 between libertarian tech-bros living in post-scarcity virtual worlds, and the old-order Amish, who still haven't embraced electricity.
I came to a similar conclusion in my college years. It felt very humiliating to ever ask for something romantic the times I did, and the answer was always "no" any way. At the same time I was learning about evolutionary psychology and realizing there is a whole game of women wanting to be taken but not asked (which disturbed me).
But learning from that, I simply made it a point to hold woman's hands or put my arm around them if we were getting along and I wanted romance. Note, I did this without asking.
But it worked every time I tried it. That's how I met my long term girlfriend in college, and it's how I met my wife. My wife says she was very surprised by it but
Bryan is always interesting rather than always right. That describes Bryan's thinking very well! I think it's Bryan's anti-SDB that makes him so interesting.
Back to my comment on the other post, I think these are some great examples of why the strategy is less than useful outside confirming what you already knew.
In case B, our guy already knew he was in the friendzone and by forcing the issue, all he did was shift his chances to zero which wasn't a benefit for him in most cases giving his propensity to siege date. Often people say you should escape those situations because of opportunity costs but in reality often they don't find a replacement hence are overall worse off; like leaving a long term negative and stable, but not toxic, relationship usually. It's like a job in a bad economy, any job is better than no job and the modern dating scene is about as bad economy as you can get as a man. What positive outcome did our friend B get here that the question helped with? He was already friendzoned and not getting anything outside a possibly if hell freezes over, now he is verboten and definitely not getting anything at all for a net negative. BTW if you a reading this man I hope you are one of the rare success stories where that opportunity cost worked out for you but on average, it doesn't but I'm rooting for you regardless.
In case C, our guy was already dating the chick and they both already knew it, just in that passive aggressive creeper way so prevalent today. He obviously wasn't asking his gay colleague out to that concert hence yeah, day one was a date and they both knew it, it wasn't a friend situation. The question didn't add anything outside making an implicit consent explicit for something both parties were already aware of. This reminds me a girl whom I was talking to yesterday who had been living with a guy for the last three months, sleeping with him, doing his laundry and cooking, etc and generally acting like a big dow eyed puppy dog around him (which is adorable btw) but they weren't "dating" because "well he never asked me if I would be his girlfriend" though "now we are because last night, he asked me if I wanted to go on a date to McDonalds". These are just optics, they aren't providing new information or value. If you don't realize you are dating someone after seeing them for a year, moving in with them for three months, and basically acting like an old married couple, I'm not sure what him asking you to hold your hand provides anything here that you didn't know. I get labels matter for some people, seems especially so for Zoomers. And if you don't realized "A person I'm sexual attracted is asking me to spend time with them" is a date, not sure what to tell you or that asking them to hold their hand will fix. BTW I'm not saying his question wasn't a good move, it was, but he wasn't in the "I'm confused" cohort Bryan was aiming at, he was on a date and they both already knew it and so he was simply moving it along.
In case A, likewise. The guy simply wasn't interested in the chick, it had nothing to do with hand holding or not knowing he was in the friendzone and while maybe the hand holding might have worked for her, it didn't work as he kept dating her afterwards for awhile leading her to overcommit. But even in that case, they both knew they were dating hence same issue.
As I said on that post, I'm all for hand holding, I do it all the time myself but just not sure the value it provides from a new information strategy outside sans the niche FWB v. relationship confusion question. Because the way I really read Bryan's advice is "get off your ass and clarify the relationship any way you can" and I'm all for that with people that are confused, the problem is that's like telling a depressed person to quit being depressed.
That said I'm willing to concede my worldview anecdotal experience is heavily skewed and should just be ignored on this one lol. I'm not a creeper so I have a hard time fathoming passive aggressive dating internally. Some might say that is why I'm single atm too lol, my-ex's all still make that claim when I talk to them lbut as I always tell them "I married, dated, kids_with, $status you" coupled with "look in the mirror my friend, how's that passive aggressiveness working for you" lol.
Regardless I liked the post, generally not a human interest LMN guy but was a good Friday piece and made me feel good about humanity and all three of those individuals; I wish them the best regardless though I do have questions, no I don't want answers, about case C lol. I always find it interesting when men have backup plans as it leads me to wonder how committed they were to the pre-existing by virtue of even having those. It's sounds like Case C was Case A a couple weeks later; not literally.
PS: I had my Zoomer daughter read both and she vehemently disagreed with me and agreed with Bryan, so what do I know lol. But I think that is because she is a chick, young, and hates labels because that means accountability, the anathema of women everywhere. On the flipside my ex’s response and one of my current GF’s was “WTF is wrong with these guys, that would be weird ASF if someone asked me that. If you want to hold my damn hand, just reach out and hold it if it’s past the first date. If I wasn’t interested, I wouldn’t be there date 2+”
In the case of B, getting an answer is better than not having an answer and continuing to pursue. The issue arises he didn’t update his behavior and continued to pursue her. Pursuing someone that likely has no interest in you is worse than not having anyone to chase/like because you are wasting time, and potentially money and other resources that could be used on other people or ventures, and the money and time you’re spending on the person who’s not interested in you is unlikely to change the outcome. When I asked, and I got an answer I didn’t like, I simply pursued other people until I found someone who reciprocated interest. The purpose of the handholding question is not to increase their attraction towards you, but to reveal fuzzy information. If you’re going out with a stranger off a dating app, a friend of a friend, or another acquaintance you have only had limited interactions with, the question “do they like me” is much more unclear.
I don't agree here in the context of Bryan's advice which was "shy men who are confused in they are in the friendzone". Our socially inept shy person in case B isn't a serial dater, which is what you were, hence the opportunity cost isn't "I could have found someone else" but "I'm alone staring at the wall the rest of my life as I got my one change in a billion" shades of that Internet story a couple months ago about the guy who swiped right millions of times over years and never got even a single date. History has shown siege dating works a non-zero percent of the time whereas ending a one-sided relationship shifts that to zero. And as gentlemen and fan clubs around all countries and time shows, one sided relationships still provide meaning to many people.
I don't disagree with you in a normative case but that isn't Bryan's target audience. Bryan's target audience seems to be "I'm a creeper and for some reason I woke up this morning and that bothered me an so rather than be an adult as ask the girl if she wants to fuck when I see her tonight, I should ask to hold her hand instead tonight so I can get the answer I already know but at least I can tell myself I 'tried'".
As stated, I'm not against handholding but it doesn't provide any beneficial information in Bryan's case.
Incredibly adorable. It’s funny that all your big picture ideas to make the world better probably won’t get implemented soon, but might eventually because your readers have more kids
The year is 2300, American society is divided 50/50 between libertarian tech-bros living in post-scarcity virtual worlds, and the old-order Amish, who still haven't embraced electricity.
This is the future statists keep from us. 😅
"Hands, touching hands, reaching out... touching me, touching you!"
https://youtu.be/0iN-hemcKc8?si=6c-tJsFpjWjrsOWA
Nein! Beschwöre nicht den Ohrwurm!
I came to a similar conclusion in my college years. It felt very humiliating to ever ask for something romantic the times I did, and the answer was always "no" any way. At the same time I was learning about evolutionary psychology and realizing there is a whole game of women wanting to be taken but not asked (which disturbed me).
But learning from that, I simply made it a point to hold woman's hands or put my arm around them if we were getting along and I wanted romance. Note, I did this without asking.
But it worked every time I tried it. That's how I met my long term girlfriend in college, and it's how I met my wife. My wife says she was very surprised by it but
Bryan is always interesting rather than always right. That describes Bryan's thinking very well! I think it's Bryan's anti-SDB that makes him so interesting.
Back to my comment on the other post, I think these are some great examples of why the strategy is less than useful outside confirming what you already knew.
In case B, our guy already knew he was in the friendzone and by forcing the issue, all he did was shift his chances to zero which wasn't a benefit for him in most cases giving his propensity to siege date. Often people say you should escape those situations because of opportunity costs but in reality often they don't find a replacement hence are overall worse off; like leaving a long term negative and stable, but not toxic, relationship usually. It's like a job in a bad economy, any job is better than no job and the modern dating scene is about as bad economy as you can get as a man. What positive outcome did our friend B get here that the question helped with? He was already friendzoned and not getting anything outside a possibly if hell freezes over, now he is verboten and definitely not getting anything at all for a net negative. BTW if you a reading this man I hope you are one of the rare success stories where that opportunity cost worked out for you but on average, it doesn't but I'm rooting for you regardless.
In case C, our guy was already dating the chick and they both already knew it, just in that passive aggressive creeper way so prevalent today. He obviously wasn't asking his gay colleague out to that concert hence yeah, day one was a date and they both knew it, it wasn't a friend situation. The question didn't add anything outside making an implicit consent explicit for something both parties were already aware of. This reminds me a girl whom I was talking to yesterday who had been living with a guy for the last three months, sleeping with him, doing his laundry and cooking, etc and generally acting like a big dow eyed puppy dog around him (which is adorable btw) but they weren't "dating" because "well he never asked me if I would be his girlfriend" though "now we are because last night, he asked me if I wanted to go on a date to McDonalds". These are just optics, they aren't providing new information or value. If you don't realize you are dating someone after seeing them for a year, moving in with them for three months, and basically acting like an old married couple, I'm not sure what him asking you to hold your hand provides anything here that you didn't know. I get labels matter for some people, seems especially so for Zoomers. And if you don't realized "A person I'm sexual attracted is asking me to spend time with them" is a date, not sure what to tell you or that asking them to hold their hand will fix. BTW I'm not saying his question wasn't a good move, it was, but he wasn't in the "I'm confused" cohort Bryan was aiming at, he was on a date and they both already knew it and so he was simply moving it along.
In case A, likewise. The guy simply wasn't interested in the chick, it had nothing to do with hand holding or not knowing he was in the friendzone and while maybe the hand holding might have worked for her, it didn't work as he kept dating her afterwards for awhile leading her to overcommit. But even in that case, they both knew they were dating hence same issue.
As I said on that post, I'm all for hand holding, I do it all the time myself but just not sure the value it provides from a new information strategy outside sans the niche FWB v. relationship confusion question. Because the way I really read Bryan's advice is "get off your ass and clarify the relationship any way you can" and I'm all for that with people that are confused, the problem is that's like telling a depressed person to quit being depressed.
That said I'm willing to concede my worldview anecdotal experience is heavily skewed and should just be ignored on this one lol. I'm not a creeper so I have a hard time fathoming passive aggressive dating internally. Some might say that is why I'm single atm too lol, my-ex's all still make that claim when I talk to them lbut as I always tell them "I married, dated, kids_with, $status you" coupled with "look in the mirror my friend, how's that passive aggressiveness working for you" lol.
Regardless I liked the post, generally not a human interest LMN guy but was a good Friday piece and made me feel good about humanity and all three of those individuals; I wish them the best regardless though I do have questions, no I don't want answers, about case C lol. I always find it interesting when men have backup plans as it leads me to wonder how committed they were to the pre-existing by virtue of even having those. It's sounds like Case C was Case A a couple weeks later; not literally.
PS: I had my Zoomer daughter read both and she vehemently disagreed with me and agreed with Bryan, so what do I know lol. But I think that is because she is a chick, young, and hates labels because that means accountability, the anathema of women everywhere. On the flipside my ex’s response and one of my current GF’s was “WTF is wrong with these guys, that would be weird ASF if someone asked me that. If you want to hold my damn hand, just reach out and hold it if it’s past the first date. If I wasn’t interested, I wouldn’t be there date 2+”
In the case of B, getting an answer is better than not having an answer and continuing to pursue. The issue arises he didn’t update his behavior and continued to pursue her. Pursuing someone that likely has no interest in you is worse than not having anyone to chase/like because you are wasting time, and potentially money and other resources that could be used on other people or ventures, and the money and time you’re spending on the person who’s not interested in you is unlikely to change the outcome. When I asked, and I got an answer I didn’t like, I simply pursued other people until I found someone who reciprocated interest. The purpose of the handholding question is not to increase their attraction towards you, but to reveal fuzzy information. If you’re going out with a stranger off a dating app, a friend of a friend, or another acquaintance you have only had limited interactions with, the question “do they like me” is much more unclear.
I don't agree here in the context of Bryan's advice which was "shy men who are confused in they are in the friendzone". Our socially inept shy person in case B isn't a serial dater, which is what you were, hence the opportunity cost isn't "I could have found someone else" but "I'm alone staring at the wall the rest of my life as I got my one change in a billion" shades of that Internet story a couple months ago about the guy who swiped right millions of times over years and never got even a single date. History has shown siege dating works a non-zero percent of the time whereas ending a one-sided relationship shifts that to zero. And as gentlemen and fan clubs around all countries and time shows, one sided relationships still provide meaning to many people.
I don't disagree with you in a normative case but that isn't Bryan's target audience. Bryan's target audience seems to be "I'm a creeper and for some reason I woke up this morning and that bothered me an so rather than be an adult as ask the girl if she wants to fuck when I see her tonight, I should ask to hold her hand instead tonight so I can get the answer I already know but at least I can tell myself I 'tried'".
As stated, I'm not against handholding but it doesn't provide any beneficial information in Bryan's case.