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Peter's avatar

Hyrum and Verlan's responses make me appreciate Bryan's ongoing effort to steelman rather than strawman his discussants.

Bryan regularly presents Hyrum's views in a way that Hyrum would agree with: "There is no fundamental and durable essence to political parties", even if he disagrees with the statement

Hyrum never presents Bryan's view -- "The consensus view of the collection across time of self-identified leftists would be 'we hate the market'" -- in a way that Bryan would agree with. Instead, he presents a different interpretation that he attributes to Bryan and proceeds to argue with that definition which no one in the room believes and thus no one has an interest in defending.

Thanks Bryan.

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Jonas's avatar

You're still my favourite author, sir. But the Lewis brothers have convinced me. I agree with them on this and disagree with you.

Since y'all seem to agree that the "right" hates the left, it seems the main point of contention is your claim that "the left" is anti-market. I can provide another counter-example that I'm quite familiar with:

Before Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health, many pro-lifers were trynna "sneak in" abortion restrictions through burdensome regulations such as: the hallways of abortion clinics had to be of a certain width, etc. under the guise of "protecting women's health". As a staunch pro-lifer, I was totally in favour of these restrictions! But, I did find them rather disingenuous. Abortion IS rather safe for the mother. But incredibly dangerous for her baby!!! But they took a page from the anti-market playbook: kill an industry with regulation in the guise of "safety", like taxi medallions or oil pipelines. In the case of abortion clinic regulations, you should have seen the ink spilled by "leftists" arguing for the free market and against "overburdensome regulations!"

That being said, I do find it useful to having some sort of "short-hand" to describe your political views rather than having to list them one-by-one. For example, I am a "pro-life libertarian." I would probably find something on hwhich to disagree with other pro-life libertarians (both pro-lifers and libertarians LOVE to argue!) but it's still a useful short-hand that pretty much sums up my political views without having to name each one! I also believe it's useful to have a tribe. Abortion is the most important issue to me. If I were American and the RepubIicans were still the most pro-life party, I would probably always support the Republicans, even though I strongly disagree with them on immigration. I more strongly agree with them on abortion. So, I guess the Republicans would be my "tribe" and I would support them, donate to them, volunteer for them and vote for them, even if I don't agree with them 100%. But I believe the Lewis brothers wouldn't disagree. But "essentialist" definitions of left and right are not useful.

Also, consider Puerto Rico: It's politics are mainly defined by people's positions on Puerto Rican sovereignty: Independence, status quo or statehood. How do you classify these positions in a left-right dichotomy?

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