I disagree. Having to ask these things is a sign of bad social skills. You have to understand that the girl herself is often unsure of what she wants out of the relationship and you have to approach questions like this from the perspective of if it helps to make the sale or not. Asking for hand holding is basically demanding a final explicit decision, which might not be what she wants.
Better to just engage in subtle body language and see how she reacts. A hand on the back, getting slightly closer during a conversation, brushing up against her. It shouldn’t be that ambiguous. She’ll either go along with it or recoil.
Yeah, in general, it's a bad idea to ask. I've tried both asking before the action and just doing the action, the latter is much better.
I think that the extreme emphasis on explicit "enthusiastic consent" pushed at universities especially harms nerdy men. I recall them even going as far as to suggest that you do so for a first kiss. I literally did that with a date, and while I DID get it, she grimaced and said "yes, but you don't have to ask". On other dates, when I did not verbally ask, the response has always been much better.
However, I didn't start doing this sooner because 1) nerd and 2) the ideology around this made me think that it would be morally wrong to do so, because I could violate her boundaries/piss her off, etc. It was only when my buddy explicitly taught me how to gauge a woman's interest that I understood that it is possible to respectfully escalate physical intimacy without a verbal request. You just find excuses to touch her, starting with very benign stuff like tapping her on the arm as you make a point, and see how she reacts. If it's positive, you can try something slightly more intimate later. If not, just fuck off for a bit and try again with something similarly benign later. If the signals keep looking bad, just stop altogether. The PUAs call this kino escalation, but they don't own behavioral patterns that humans have been enacting for millennia, it's just a fine-to-do human thing.
I'm still pretty socially awkward but this helped me a shit ton. Some of my friends are still drinking the Kool-Aid though, and they remain suspicious of initiating even the most mundane contact with a woman; unsurprisingly, they are single.
The dealbreaker is this. men with high social skills see if she wants to hold hands/kiss/have sex. Low social skills men can't see this and think she's interested when she isn't or vice versa. So the easiest thing is just teach those men how to understand womens facial emotions, body language
Yes there’s no shortcut. And I don’t think this stuff is actually that inherently hard to understand, often it’s cope/desperation that makes you unable to see it. Many guys who can’t see their own situation objectively would be able to tell if they were watching someone else.
Yes, If you need to "ask to hold her hand" this sub-conciously signals extremley low social skills, insecurity and low dominance. It's probably the end of all your romantic prospects with this woman. This woman will label you "weird" (and tbh she will be right)
Agreed. If your social skills are too poor to navigate these subtleties and you need something concrete, at least modify this advice to try holding hands without asking. Has the advantages Bryan speaks of without coming off as weak.
I disagree that many are truly hopeless. At least not people who read Caplan, who at least have met some threshold of smarts and open mindedness which can help them approve.
I think a hand on the back runs a much higher risk of coming across as creepy than asking "Wanna hold hands?" Certainly I've seen more social media complaints from women about a guy placing his hand on her back vs asking to hold her hand.
Suppose I meet a woman at a bookstore. We have a conversation about books. We agree to get coffee some time. After getting coffee, I ask if she wants to walk to a park nearby. As we're walking I smile at her and say "Wanna hold hands?" (Note: I will grant that the "I want to hold your hand" version of the sentence seems to signal bad social skills, not entirely sure why.) Anyway, if she's been laughing at my jokes or responding with interest to what I'm saying, the most likely result in the scenario I outlined is for her to return my smile and say "sure". But if she will respond "no" to that question, I have a hard time imagining any scenario under which we could ended up romantically partnered. At that point you've spent plenty of time together for her to form an opinion about you. She probably thinks of this as a date -- if not you're likely boned anyways. If she has extreme social anxiety, she might think you're attractive but be too touchphobic to hold hands after several hours of 1-on-1 conversation. But most women aren't like that.
The more I think about it, the worse I think this “want to hold hands” idea is.
You’re thinking in terms of “what can I do not to not get a woman to complain about me.” Wrong frame. Sometimes the thing that’s most likely to work is the thing that might lead to complaints. You need the high risk-high reward strategy.
Seems to me the right frame is how to maximize expected value.
In many young person coastal elite social circles nowadays, stuff that would be considered quite innocuous 5-10 years ago can very much get you blackballed. I learned this the hard way through personal experiences, plus the experiences of friends. (I'm 31 years old, the changes in how young people date over the past 10 years have been insane. And it's not just a matter of how good looking you are, I am a sufficiently handsome guy that women occasionally catcall me, I still got blackballed from a social circle of ultraliberal women for reasons I'm not completely sure of.)
So the trick is to find ways to escalate which simultaneously signal attractive qualities like being a funny and assertive guy, and minimize the risk that she gossips to her friends and you gain a reputation as a creep. I believe that among today's young women, being able to do this smoothly signals a lot of attractiveness, and she will subconsciously think that you're a guy who gets laid a lot.
Another consideration which tends to go underdiscussed is how your interactions with women will affect your own emotional makeup. Suppose you decide to roll the dice and try an obnoxious cheesey pickup line on every women in the bar because "what the hell, I'm never gonna see any of them again". The thing is that getting shot down 10 times in a row will have an undeniable impact on your own self-concept. And the exact same sort of mental shield you put up to deal with that fallout will make it harder for you to have a genuine smile and connection with women. And women are experts in figuring out what is and isn't genuine. So instead of thinking in terms of what helps you score, think in terms of what helps you prepare your self-concept for the next encounter. If it's clear she thinks of you as a creep after you put your hand on her lower back uninvited, you'll either start thinking of yourself as a creep, or start numbing yourself to the opinions of women and the emotional signals they send out, in order to stay sane. Neither of those is a good path towards dating success. (I'm not necessarily saying that you should *never* put your hand on her back uninvited, I'd say you will probably be fine if she's already smiled at you at least once in a non-greeting setting + it's a context where romance would be considered appropriate.)
(A corollary here is that deliberately getting friendzoned by a woman you don't have much of a crush on can help your dating success with other women.)
Yes, you need to initiate some sort of physical contact (fist bumps, high fives, handshakes, hand on shoulder/arm work, but a hug at beginning of date is better) before asking to hold hands. But, no, explicitly asking to hold hands or kiss will not lower your value in any significant way. Just say "I'd like to hold hands" or "I'd like to kiss you." It's fine.
Hmm I suppose it depends on how you ask. "Can I kiss you?" sounds like you consider the no-response fairly likely, which may indicate lower confidence. Your "I'd like to kiss you." sounds more assertive and sure that the answer is yes, indicating the opposite.
You can go even more assertive than that too: "I want to kiss you" (women love being wanted) or even "I want you to kiss me" (could work great if she's kinky and submissive, likes being given commands, don't make it sound like a threat obviously). Don't neglect the potential of humor either: "I think we may be overdue for a makeout session. What do you think?"
I run a dating advice community for nerds, and our heuristic for the first date is similar: escalate intimacy until you find the limit of what's comfortable, then don't cross that limit.
Failure modes:
1) In many cases novice daters fail to realize a one-on-one interaction is, in fact, an opportunity to be intimate (a "date"), which leads to people hanging out with their crush without even attempting to get handsy. One user had to be convinced for months to touch his crush who visited his place repeatedly.
2) Many people are not used to physical intimacy, or afraid to appear creepy, so they stick to "safe" escalation ways like compliments, gifts etc. which typically don't lead anywhere. Here's where handholding advice is good, but I'd say if handholding goes well, why not try cuddling, and then kissing and so forth. I was shocked when I started doing that and realized how far I can go on a first meeting.
3) Just jumping straight from handshakes into groping and unwanted kissing? Honestly haven't seen this failure mode before, but it's possible. People who have problems dating are overwhelmingly too timid rather than too forward.
4) Repeated advances even after clear indication they're unwelcome. However, if conditionals are involved ("Not here, there are too many people") it could be permissible to try again later ("How about we go to a more private place?")
In general, I agree with the sentiment "Instead of trying to figure out if someone likes you or not, try to get intimate and see if they reject you or not", but only when it comes to online dating - dating this way at work or at a social group can lead to dangerous fallouts if you're inexperienced.
The only problem I have with this advice is that in certain contexts/cultures, holding hands can to certain people be a sign that the relationship has reached a point of exclusivity. The girl may say "no" because that's something you do with a boyfriend, not necessarily because they're not interested in it going somewhere.
Kind of cute....a guy wanting to hold my hand on the first date. Guys these days are such Philistines most are usually looking to score on the first date and are not very subtle about it. Why I don't date anymore....but after losing my soulmate Phil last year, no one will ever compare to him. Dating was so uncomplicated when I was in my late teens and 20's....what happened? Oh well. Glad I had fun when I did.
The 'classic' signal is to offer to pay for the bill. You signal in this way that you intended this to be a date. You can make things clear while making arrangements like 'I would like to invite you for drinks/dinner'. If she accepts, then she likely signals that you are on the same page. If she goes dutch, then she likely tells you are not.
I do not know how things are in the US, but in Europe, it still (kind of) works.
Couldn't you just say the word "date"? "Would you like to go on a date with me?" By using that word explicitly, aren't you at least removing doubt of THAT much?
I'm not sure about your example with the bill, though. When I was younger (20s), I split the bill with guys I was romantically interested in. Especially on a first date where there were few assumptions going in. And without being fanatically feminist, I don't automatically expect men to pay for EVERYthing.
Thank you for your thoughtfulness. I have encountered many women who expect to have everything paid for, because... they're the woman.
My own solution to this was to begin to pay and, if my companion offered to split, I would smile and say "you can get the next one". If she then insisted on splitting, she was telling me there wasn't going to be a next one. If she expected me to pay for everything, this let her know that I was not her guy - and her face would often show it. If she looked happy with that solution, it was a good sign.
I really like your approach. That would have absolutely worked for me- it signals you're willing to have an equal participant in the relationship but you're asserting yourself.
Accepting to be invited on a first date does not mean you expect men to pay for everything, it just means you accept an invitation on a first date :) .
Honestly, as much as I understand why some young women prefer to split the bill, I would rather they did not. It would have spared me many a missed occasions. And it would solve the signal problem Caplan mentions.
Sorry, this is terrible advice. It falls squarely in the "beta" category and evokes Kitsch after-movie walks taken bye smiling couples in pre-sixties Munich. And the act of asking if it is OK to do such a thing is a sure way to rejection of high-status women. I don't poo-poo the general sentiment however, which is an upfront, non-sneaky, non-creepy touching that signals romantic interest. Right track; totally wrong train.
A bit of hand holding while seated and talking could be cool. It's the idea of asking to hold hands and then walking which is enough to make any woman other than a total wallflower barf all over the sidewalk.
I had good experience offering my dates to hold hands when walking - either when climbing downstairs, crossing the road, or just walking side by side in a scenic location.
Here is an example from personal experience: there was this girl I dated and a week later she told her friend that she was concerned because it seemed that I wasn't romantically interested. That friend's husband suggested to me that I hold her hand to show that I _was_ romantically interested. Things worked out and we have been happily married for seven years now. In hindsight, holding hands on the first date would probably have better.
I disagree. Having to ask these things is a sign of bad social skills. You have to understand that the girl herself is often unsure of what she wants out of the relationship and you have to approach questions like this from the perspective of if it helps to make the sale or not. Asking for hand holding is basically demanding a final explicit decision, which might not be what she wants.
Better to just engage in subtle body language and see how she reacts. A hand on the back, getting slightly closer during a conversation, brushing up against her. It shouldn’t be that ambiguous. She’ll either go along with it or recoil.
Yeah, in general, it's a bad idea to ask. I've tried both asking before the action and just doing the action, the latter is much better.
I think that the extreme emphasis on explicit "enthusiastic consent" pushed at universities especially harms nerdy men. I recall them even going as far as to suggest that you do so for a first kiss. I literally did that with a date, and while I DID get it, she grimaced and said "yes, but you don't have to ask". On other dates, when I did not verbally ask, the response has always been much better.
However, I didn't start doing this sooner because 1) nerd and 2) the ideology around this made me think that it would be morally wrong to do so, because I could violate her boundaries/piss her off, etc. It was only when my buddy explicitly taught me how to gauge a woman's interest that I understood that it is possible to respectfully escalate physical intimacy without a verbal request. You just find excuses to touch her, starting with very benign stuff like tapping her on the arm as you make a point, and see how she reacts. If it's positive, you can try something slightly more intimate later. If not, just fuck off for a bit and try again with something similarly benign later. If the signals keep looking bad, just stop altogether. The PUAs call this kino escalation, but they don't own behavioral patterns that humans have been enacting for millennia, it's just a fine-to-do human thing.
I'm still pretty socially awkward but this helped me a shit ton. Some of my friends are still drinking the Kool-Aid though, and they remain suspicious of initiating even the most mundane contact with a woman; unsurprisingly, they are single.
The dealbreaker is this. men with high social skills see if she wants to hold hands/kiss/have sex. Low social skills men can't see this and think she's interested when she isn't or vice versa. So the easiest thing is just teach those men how to understand womens facial emotions, body language
Yes there’s no shortcut. And I don’t think this stuff is actually that inherently hard to understand, often it’s cope/desperation that makes you unable to see it. Many guys who can’t see their own situation objectively would be able to tell if they were watching someone else.
Yes, If you need to "ask to hold her hand" this sub-conciously signals extremley low social skills, insecurity and low dominance. It's probably the end of all your romantic prospects with this woman. This woman will label you "weird" (and tbh she will be right)
Agreed. If your social skills are too poor to navigate these subtleties and you need something concrete, at least modify this advice to try holding hands without asking. Has the advantages Bryan speaks of without coming off as weak.
I disagree that many are truly hopeless. At least not people who read Caplan, who at least have met some threshold of smarts and open mindedness which can help them approve.
I think a hand on the back runs a much higher risk of coming across as creepy than asking "Wanna hold hands?" Certainly I've seen more social media complaints from women about a guy placing his hand on her back vs asking to hold her hand.
Suppose I meet a woman at a bookstore. We have a conversation about books. We agree to get coffee some time. After getting coffee, I ask if she wants to walk to a park nearby. As we're walking I smile at her and say "Wanna hold hands?" (Note: I will grant that the "I want to hold your hand" version of the sentence seems to signal bad social skills, not entirely sure why.) Anyway, if she's been laughing at my jokes or responding with interest to what I'm saying, the most likely result in the scenario I outlined is for her to return my smile and say "sure". But if she will respond "no" to that question, I have a hard time imagining any scenario under which we could ended up romantically partnered. At that point you've spent plenty of time together for her to form an opinion about you. She probably thinks of this as a date -- if not you're likely boned anyways. If she has extreme social anxiety, she might think you're attractive but be too touchphobic to hold hands after several hours of 1-on-1 conversation. But most women aren't like that.
The more I think about it, the worse I think this “want to hold hands” idea is.
You’re thinking in terms of “what can I do not to not get a woman to complain about me.” Wrong frame. Sometimes the thing that’s most likely to work is the thing that might lead to complaints. You need the high risk-high reward strategy.
Seems to me the right frame is how to maximize expected value.
In many young person coastal elite social circles nowadays, stuff that would be considered quite innocuous 5-10 years ago can very much get you blackballed. I learned this the hard way through personal experiences, plus the experiences of friends. (I'm 31 years old, the changes in how young people date over the past 10 years have been insane. And it's not just a matter of how good looking you are, I am a sufficiently handsome guy that women occasionally catcall me, I still got blackballed from a social circle of ultraliberal women for reasons I'm not completely sure of.)
So the trick is to find ways to escalate which simultaneously signal attractive qualities like being a funny and assertive guy, and minimize the risk that she gossips to her friends and you gain a reputation as a creep. I believe that among today's young women, being able to do this smoothly signals a lot of attractiveness, and she will subconsciously think that you're a guy who gets laid a lot.
Another consideration which tends to go underdiscussed is how your interactions with women will affect your own emotional makeup. Suppose you decide to roll the dice and try an obnoxious cheesey pickup line on every women in the bar because "what the hell, I'm never gonna see any of them again". The thing is that getting shot down 10 times in a row will have an undeniable impact on your own self-concept. And the exact same sort of mental shield you put up to deal with that fallout will make it harder for you to have a genuine smile and connection with women. And women are experts in figuring out what is and isn't genuine. So instead of thinking in terms of what helps you score, think in terms of what helps you prepare your self-concept for the next encounter. If it's clear she thinks of you as a creep after you put your hand on her lower back uninvited, you'll either start thinking of yourself as a creep, or start numbing yourself to the opinions of women and the emotional signals they send out, in order to stay sane. Neither of those is a good path towards dating success. (I'm not necessarily saying that you should *never* put your hand on her back uninvited, I'd say you will probably be fine if she's already smiled at you at least once in a non-greeting setting + it's a context where romance would be considered appropriate.)
(A corollary here is that deliberately getting friendzoned by a woman you don't have much of a crush on can help your dating success with other women.)
The idea of “love at first sight or not at all” I think is more of a male perspective. We literally just go by sight! Women do something else.
What do you think of the assumption that if they don’t even want to hold your hand, it was never meant to be?
Yes, you need to initiate some sort of physical contact (fist bumps, high fives, handshakes, hand on shoulder/arm work, but a hug at beginning of date is better) before asking to hold hands. But, no, explicitly asking to hold hands or kiss will not lower your value in any significant way. Just say "I'd like to hold hands" or "I'd like to kiss you." It's fine.
Hmm I suppose it depends on how you ask. "Can I kiss you?" sounds like you consider the no-response fairly likely, which may indicate lower confidence. Your "I'd like to kiss you." sounds more assertive and sure that the answer is yes, indicating the opposite.
You can go even more assertive than that too: "I want to kiss you" (women love being wanted) or even "I want you to kiss me" (could work great if she's kinky and submissive, likes being given commands, don't make it sound like a threat obviously). Don't neglect the potential of humor either: "I think we may be overdue for a makeout session. What do you think?"
For some that's like scoring a bicycle style goal.
I love nerds writing about dating
We get it to a science that works
This problem has mostly been solved by online dating taking over the dating market. Now you know without a shadow of doubt that you’re on a date.
I wish there was a way I could bet you on this and kill your winning streak.
I run a dating advice community for nerds, and our heuristic for the first date is similar: escalate intimacy until you find the limit of what's comfortable, then don't cross that limit.
Failure modes:
1) In many cases novice daters fail to realize a one-on-one interaction is, in fact, an opportunity to be intimate (a "date"), which leads to people hanging out with their crush without even attempting to get handsy. One user had to be convinced for months to touch his crush who visited his place repeatedly.
2) Many people are not used to physical intimacy, or afraid to appear creepy, so they stick to "safe" escalation ways like compliments, gifts etc. which typically don't lead anywhere. Here's where handholding advice is good, but I'd say if handholding goes well, why not try cuddling, and then kissing and so forth. I was shocked when I started doing that and realized how far I can go on a first meeting.
3) Just jumping straight from handshakes into groping and unwanted kissing? Honestly haven't seen this failure mode before, but it's possible. People who have problems dating are overwhelmingly too timid rather than too forward.
4) Repeated advances even after clear indication they're unwelcome. However, if conditionals are involved ("Not here, there are too many people") it could be permissible to try again later ("How about we go to a more private place?")
In general, I agree with the sentiment "Instead of trying to figure out if someone likes you or not, try to get intimate and see if they reject you or not", but only when it comes to online dating - dating this way at work or at a social group can lead to dangerous fallouts if you're inexperienced.
Haha I love it!
The only problem I have with this advice is that in certain contexts/cultures, holding hands can to certain people be a sign that the relationship has reached a point of exclusivity. The girl may say "no" because that's something you do with a boyfriend, not necessarily because they're not interested in it going somewhere.
Gotta clear some of these duplicates.
Yeah, sorry. Substack was acting weird. I had no idea there were duplicates! Thanks for letting me know.
I think of Jules and Vince varying on foot massages.
Right idea, but at the wrong time. Holding hands is a bigger play than the first kiss as it suggests something deeper then hedonistic attraction.
This is a great question to ask when you think you are dating, but want a low-risk signal to move your priors.
Kind of cute....a guy wanting to hold my hand on the first date. Guys these days are such Philistines most are usually looking to score on the first date and are not very subtle about it. Why I don't date anymore....but after losing my soulmate Phil last year, no one will ever compare to him. Dating was so uncomplicated when I was in my late teens and 20's....what happened? Oh well. Glad I had fun when I did.
The 'classic' signal is to offer to pay for the bill. You signal in this way that you intended this to be a date. You can make things clear while making arrangements like 'I would like to invite you for drinks/dinner'. If she accepts, then she likely signals that you are on the same page. If she goes dutch, then she likely tells you are not.
I do not know how things are in the US, but in Europe, it still (kind of) works.
Couldn't you just say the word "date"? "Would you like to go on a date with me?" By using that word explicitly, aren't you at least removing doubt of THAT much?
I'm not sure about your example with the bill, though. When I was younger (20s), I split the bill with guys I was romantically interested in. Especially on a first date where there were few assumptions going in. And without being fanatically feminist, I don't automatically expect men to pay for EVERYthing.
Thank you for your thoughtfulness. I have encountered many women who expect to have everything paid for, because... they're the woman.
My own solution to this was to begin to pay and, if my companion offered to split, I would smile and say "you can get the next one". If she then insisted on splitting, she was telling me there wasn't going to be a next one. If she expected me to pay for everything, this let her know that I was not her guy - and her face would often show it. If she looked happy with that solution, it was a good sign.
I really like your approach. That would have absolutely worked for me- it signals you're willing to have an equal participant in the relationship but you're asserting yourself.
Accepting to be invited on a first date does not mean you expect men to pay for everything, it just means you accept an invitation on a first date :) .
Honestly, as much as I understand why some young women prefer to split the bill, I would rather they did not. It would have spared me many a missed occasions. And it would solve the signal problem Caplan mentions.
Sorry, this is terrible advice. It falls squarely in the "beta" category and evokes Kitsch after-movie walks taken bye smiling couples in pre-sixties Munich. And the act of asking if it is OK to do such a thing is a sure way to rejection of high-status women. I don't poo-poo the general sentiment however, which is an upfront, non-sneaky, non-creepy touching that signals romantic interest. Right track; totally wrong train.
A bit of hand holding while seated and talking could be cool. It's the idea of asking to hold hands and then walking which is enough to make any woman other than a total wallflower barf all over the sidewalk.
I had good experience offering my dates to hold hands when walking - either when climbing downstairs, crossing the road, or just walking side by side in a scenic location.
Sorry, that makes you a dweeb. Nothing personal.
Oh yes I'm totally a dweeb
Party on my brother.
I'm gonna guess this doesn't apply to online dating. :)
Here is an example from personal experience: there was this girl I dated and a week later she told her friend that she was concerned because it seemed that I wasn't romantically interested. That friend's husband suggested to me that I hold her hand to show that I _was_ romantically interested. Things worked out and we have been happily married for seven years now. In hindsight, holding hands on the first date would probably have better.
"If they don’t even want to hold your hand, it was never meant to be."
How can you assume this?
It would be interesting to have some field reports on how well this works.
I think John McAfee said it best.